Comments on Andy's Study: A small worry about church plants (part 2)

Hi Andy. Thanks for the helpful posts. I think you...

2012-01-12T00:38:55.482-08:00

Hi Andy. Thanks for the helpful posts. I think you are spot on; any church plant, of any age needs to begin with a worked through ecclesiology from the start. In the excitement of starting up something new it can be seen as unnecessary.

Ecclesiology is to important to be decided on the hoof. And even where it isn't possible to have (e.g.) plural elders from day one, starting with a clear model of what you are aiming for and expressing that model with clarity to church members is absolutely necessary.

Its refreshing to hear a defence of the (nuanced) Congregationalism to which we also suscribe. Looking forward to post no. 3.

Andy

Appreciated your thoughts Andrew - I have to confe...

2012-01-11T23:54:58.903-08:00

Appreciated your thoughts Andrew - I have to confess that watching from afar, I've had my concerns about the UK church planting scene too. Before I cause unnecessary offense, let me stress I am absolutely behind church planting & don't want to be critical of people doing God's work around the UK...however, my concerns are that I wonder if church planting has become the next trendy thing & that it's easier to church plant than work with existing churches in an area/situation.

Of course, just because it's trendy, doesn't mean it's wrong. Looking on from afar, it seems there are numerous church plants being established in the UK & my concern is whether they are being planted in the places that really need another church? Having said all this, I must admit to having sympathy for those who choose to start something new, rather than reforming (I use the term loosely!) something older and more established. Some of my concerns tie in with your posts regarding governance and accountability. Anyway - enjoyed reading your posts & thought I'd flag up another concern!

Two excellent posts Andy. Thank you. I basically ...

2012-01-11T07:39:45.998-08:00

Two excellent posts Andy. Thank you.

I basically agree with you, but only because your definition of congregational governance is very specific. The trouble in many places I see is that the congregation which believes it ought to be governing does not share the view that it ought to normally be delegating leader functions to those with spiritual gifts of leadership. And a church that has been going a long time frequently doesn't appoint new leaders (especially ones from outside)on that basis.

Therefore it is very easy for an unbiblical form of government by majority opinion expressed by vote to take over. And once it does so it is extremely difficult to undo the situation.

Do you have any thoughts on how leaders can rescue a church out of that situation, and what the pressures will be upon them as they seek to do it?

Happy new year. Hope to see you soon. Ruth P was singing your praises to me recently!

That's really helpful and interesting. I thin...

2012-01-11T02:42:25.354-08:00

That's really helpful and interesting.

I think your end is the most important bit.

I wonder if at the heart of the problem, is that when people feel "called" by God into ministry & church planting they forget about THEIR personal sinful human nature.

In the charismatic world this probably manifests itself(as you said in post 1) by people thinking they are "Holy-Spirit-filled". And in the con evang world maybe in feeling great about their Biblical knowledge & love of people.

When I think of a "minister" who had a great impact on me & many of my friends. What was his recipe for success? He didn't trust in his own great teaching, He didn't trust in his funny stories, He didn't trust in wonderful marriage. He didn't even trust in his decisions being "Spirit-filled" ones.

He knew HE PERSONALLY was STILL sinful. That his motives were mixed. That the message of the cross wasn't just one for outsiders, but for HIM. He submitted himself to the authority of scripture & accountability to others, because he didn't trust that he wouldn't use his power destructively.

I wonder if sometimes when church planting efforts to tell "others" about Jesus. We forget that Jesus died because we personally are still sinful & JESUS paid it all.

I wonder if in short, we all, need to recognize how sinful we are & seek to be kept accountable.
Then there is room for all these solutions to church governance (each with it's own pitfalls).